Protest Results NZNL Race 4

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 8:52 pm

Protests Race 4 Chicagoland

The driver being protested against is the second named one as below:

Wood v Big Al

A serious collision. Big Al was following Wood nicely, Wood had a slightly slower exit to a turn, Big Al passed and then drifted too high on the next corner entry and took Wood out. Wood was 2nd Big Al 29th , while the committee is not saying that a lapped car should not pass the leader or leaders, caution must be taken when passing ANY car, but especially so when an action like this effects the outcome of a race.
GUILTY with a Ã¢â‚¬â€œ 18 point reduction

Wideload v Murphys Law

Murphy has again rear ended another car. This is the third time in four races that a similar incident has occurred. Murphy continually puts himself in a position where his only solution is hit the car in front, in this case he just went into the turn too fast. A higher penalty again is given. The limit for points reduction is 75, after that the driver is not allowed to race in the season. Murphy is now on 65.
GUILTY with a -33 points reduction

Big Al · Post by **Big Al** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:11 pm

Sorry but i think you are saying lapped cars should not attempt to pass the leaders. in race one there was a protest against viking for drifting high in a corner and he was penalised -8 points, i do the same thing but against one of the leaders and i get -18 points.....some consistency when handing out the penalties would be nice, and this is the first protest against me.

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:19 pm

The commitee makes an unbiased look at the seriousness of the mistake. There is no real comparison between the two incidents mentioned above. This was a bad misjudgement, the Viking one was a minor misjudgement, simple really

odonohuesp · Post by **odonohuesp** » Mon Sep 05, 2005 10:31 pm

Sim Racer HQ points have been updated.

Murphy's Law - We would like to remind you that you are coming up on the 75 point penalty total and that you may want to use what you have learned last season and this season for the remaining races. Go back and look at what you did during the 2nd race and apply the skills you did then.

Big Al · Post by **Big Al** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:08 am

TonyG wrote:The commitee makes an unbiased look at the seriousness of the mistake. There is no real comparison between the two incidents mentioned above. This was a bad misjudgement, the Viking one was a minor misjudgement, simple really

there have only been 3 protest where more than 10 points has been deducted (not including those drivers accumulating penalties), all 3 have involved leaders... odie, riven and wood...maybe this is just a coincidence?

i dont have a problem with the -18 points as long as the committee is consistant. i just have to wonder if i would have got an 18 point penalty if the car i took out was coming 32 instead of 2nd?

whether your coming 1st or 31st getting ripped sux and the penalty should be the same.

mikool · Post by **mikool** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:07 am

I reckon Big Al should have got bonus points for taking wood out.....

come on guys.. you are glad he did deep down inside.....

18 points does seem high for a 1st time pen this season...

odonohuesp · Post by **odonohuesp** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:54 am

Big Al wrote:
TonyG wrote:The commitee makes an unbiased look at the seriousness of the mistake. There is no real comparison between the two incidents mentioned above. This was a bad misjudgement, the Viking one was a minor misjudgement, simple really
there have only been 3 protest where more than 10 points has been deducted (not including those drivers accumulating penalties), all 3 have involved leaders... odie, riven and wood...maybe this is just a coincidence?

Be careful here Big Al.

I wonder if you would be saying the same thing if the DuDs where involved. As Tony stated and Jetboy stated last week, the committee looks at the situation and bases judgment off of how they see the incident. Each committee members has different experiences and they make different judgments off of how severe the incident is. Please remember that your penalty is an average. Some members may have found the incident less severe than others.

I am not sure how much on-line racing the others members have, but I have been running in leagues since NASCAR 3 and the penalty system we have here is pretty fair. In another league that I run in, you are required to park your car if you are responsible for bring out 3 cautions (including self spins). If you are found guilty of an incident, automatic 25 point penalty. If it is the leader of the race, you lost 25 points, a 1 race suspension and you must qual from the back your next race back.

Big Al · Post by **Big Al** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 12:31 pm

odonohuesp wrote:
Big Al wrote:
TonyG wrote:The commitee makes an unbiased look at the seriousness of the mistake. There is no real comparison between the two incidents mentioned above. This was a bad misjudgement, the Viking one was a minor misjudgement, simple really
there have only been 3 protest where more than 10 points has been deducted (not including those drivers accumulating penalties), all 3 have involved leaders... odie, riven and wood...maybe this is just a coincidence?

Be careful here Big Al.

i am not saying the committee is biased towards certain drivers but the facts are the higher penalties have involved higher positioned cars

I wonder if you would be saying the same thing if the DuDs where involved.

Sorry Odie i am missing your point... Duds, Monster whoever my gripe is with the penalty system not individuals or teams or even the committee for that matter.

As Tony stated and Jetboy stated last week, the committee looks at the situation and bases judgment off of how they see the incident. Each committee members has different experiences and they make different judgments off of how severe the incident is. Please remember that your penalty is an average. Some members may have found the incident less severe than others.

yes i am aware of how the penalty system works but to be told that the position of the cars involved is not considered then why was the point made that i was 29th and wood was 2nd, surely that itself tells that the position of the cars is a factor

I am not sure how much on-line racing the others members have, but I have been running in leagues since NASCAR 3 and the penalty system we have here is pretty fair. In another league that I run in, you are required to park your car if you are responsible for bring out 3 cautions (including self spins). If you are found guilty of an incident, automatic 25 point penalty. If it is the leader of the race, you lost 25 points, a 1 race suspension and you must qual from the back your next race back.

Sounds like a very good penalty system at least you know where you stand, our current system is too much fingers crossed and hope you dont lose too many points.perhaps a change towards a set penalty would be an improvement.

I hope the committee does not not take my posting as an attack, i just want to get get my point of view across that the current penalty system seems flawed to me.

Post by **Inspector** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:16 pm

I think it is fair to say Al is that the issue lies with individual opinion here.

Each individual committee member takes their experience and uses that to form an opinion of an incident. They rate the incident and give it a penalty. These opinions and penalties are sent to the rest of the committee and added up and averaged.

So in earlier incidents/protests I as 1 member viewed it and made a penalty soley based upon my experience and opinion of that individual incident. In this incident I did the same again. Clearly I and the majority of the committee saw this as a more serious incident than earlier ones because we submitted a higher penalty. If one guy had seen the incident as serious and 4 as not serious the points deduction average would have reflected that, but clearly this time the average is higher.

So despite the fact that the points are greater or less than other incidents you have to understand that they came from an average of opinions so no one person can jump on you heavily. You have to decide if the experience of those judging these incidents is enough and they reflect the feelings of the league as a whole and then accept that. If not then in the future the protest committee should be elected and be seperate from the organising committee who are volunteers and automatically become the judge, jury and executioners of the protest system.

BAZZIL · Post by **BAZZIL** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 2:24 pm

Just to clarify, the position of cars only makes a real difference if it's a blocking penalty offence.

In this situation, Big Al was faster than Wood (Wood's tires were more worn) so the fact that Wood was in 2nd didn't have anything to do with the severety of the penalty at all.

Just to re-iterate, we do have an emoticon for use in times of dissagreement:

Big Al · Post by **Big Al** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:16 pm

if you take snippets from the posts so far you get the view from where i am coming from in saying that the incident was not that severe ( i have certainly seen worse)

1. " Big Al was following wood nicely" this is true, for a number of laps i followed wood without any desire or intention to pass i was quite happy where i was.

2. "wood tyres were more worn than big als" again true it was obvious to me that my tyres were in better shape but i was still quite content to follow wood.

3. " big al was faster " "wood was slower exiting the turn" again true and it was at this point i decided to pass, this i acheived cleanly the problem arose when i was unable to get a clear length in front to allow me to move to the higher preferred racing line.

to be honest i expected wood to yeild and allow me to get in front, afterall he had nothing to gain in racing me but he didnt and i was under pressure when entering the next corner to hold a tight inside line which i was unable to do due to worn tyres and misjudging correct speed.

with that i am sorry but i fail to see it as a severe incident, with the penalties handed out so far this season i would have thought a -18 penalty for a first offence would be due to dangerous and delibrate driving, not simply due to drifting high with worn tyres...which there would be very few drivers who could say that that didnt happen to them at some stage through the race.

Skelo · Post by **Skelo** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:29 pm

For what its worth....

I tend to stay away from protests as they as a whole are the largest contributing factor to the displeasure from online racing amongst friends.
The community which I joined a while back seems to based around a friendly group, whether loose or slightly closer it doesn't matter.
I would rather talk it out and learn how to fix it for next time.

After looking at the replay and the posts here in forums I have to agree with Big Al and suggest that it is indeed a harsh penalty for a first time offence. Sure a penalty is deserved but surely not quite as bad as this?

Yes, I realise I have no position on the committee and that may factor into whether my opinion is heard, but surely as "elderly" as we are we can look at these incidents from both sides of the fence and come to a slightly more reasonable punishment.

After posts from last season and listening to Ventrillo I am well aware that it is the intention of more than a few to "crack down on bad driving" but in this case I believe it is not a severe example of this.

Big Al · Post by **Big Al** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:39 pm

Skelo wrote:For what its worth....

I tend to stay away from protests as they as a whole are the largest contributing factor to the displeasure from online racing amongst friends.
The community which I joined a while back seems to based around a friendly group, whether loose or slightly closer it doesn't matter.
I would rather talk it out and learn how to fix it for next time.

After looking at the replay and the posts here in forums I have to agree with Big Al and suggest that it is indeed a harsh penalty for a first time offence. Sure a penalty is deserved but surely not quite as bad as this?

Yes, I realise I have no position on the committee and that may factor into whether my opinion is heard, but surely as "elderly" as we are we can look at these incidents from both sides of the fence and come to a slightly more reasonable punishment.

After posts from last season and listening to Ventrillo I am well aware that it is the intention of more than a few to "crack down on bad driving" but in this case I believe it is not a severe example of this.

Thanks for your support skelo

you are not alone when it comes to submitting protest, i know that their are a few drivers who cannot be bothered with protests, this adds another factor into the whole protest scenario alot depends on who you have an incident with, i know for a fact that there are some drivers that can count themselves very lucky that they were not protested against simply because of who they took out.

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:47 pm

A lot of discussion "after" the decision has been made on these protests.
Can I ask why you didn't bother giving your side of the story when you had the opportunity to do so when the protest was lodged, the same thing happened last week.
I really pushed for the 24 hour response time so that anyone could give their side of the event in case the commitee didn't spot something in that drivers favour (we aren't perfect)
The reason I wanted this implemented was because a couple of seasons ago I was penalised and was unable to give my version and had to suffer the penalty because that was how the rules were written. Now everyone has the same opportunity to state their case, if you don't use that system then what's the point of complaining afterwards.

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:56 pm

Big Al wrote: you are not alone when it comes to submitting protest, i know that their are a few drivers who cannot be bothered with protests, this adds another factor into the whole protest scenario alot depends on who you have an incident with, i know for a fact that there are some drivers that can count themselves very lucky that they were not protested against simply because of who they took out.

These are vague comments about what others want, if the majority doesn't want a protest system then that is what will happen, this is not a dictatorship

but so far those "others" haven't said anything on the forum

Skelo · Post by **Skelo** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 4:57 pm

There are going to be a couple of answers to that....

Tony you are correct. A defence should have been posted/submitted within the time frames. Fullstop.

However, Big Al is not arguing the fact that he is being protested against, he is arguing the amount that he is being deducted.
He "may" have realised that he was to be punished but knowing he was in the wrong left it as is, not knowing how severe his penalty would be.

The protests arrive on forums rather quickly but the decisions take time to make and we respect that.
Being protested I believe is not Big Al's major concern.
He knew it was coming but didn't know the full extent.
The full extent is published and now he "see's the full picture" and is entitled to express his opinion.

Big Al · Post by **Big Al** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:03 pm

TonyG wrote:A lot of discussion "after" the decision has been made on these protests.
Can I ask why you didn't bother giving your side of the story when you had the opportunity to do so when the protest was lodged, the same thing happened last week.
I really pushed for the 24 hour response time so that anyone could give their side of the event in case the commitee didn't spot something in that drivers favour (we aren't perfect)
The reason I wanted this implemented was because a couple of seasons ago I was penalised and was unable to give my version and had to suffer the penalty because that was how the rules were written. Now everyone has the same opportunity to state their case, if you don't use that system then what's the point of complaining afterwards.

Simply because i never imagined i would suffer an 18 point penalty, as for submitting my version of events i doubt it would have helped much as you can see from my previous post i have already quoted from their own words of the committee what happened so they did see my version and still elected to whack me with 18 points.

i am not trying to get the penalty reduced i am just trying to fathom as to how this was regarded as a severe incident. both drivers had an oppurntunity to avoid this incident it was not all my making had wood allowed me to get back onto the racing line everything would have been fine.

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 5:20 pm

Big Al wrote: Simply because i never imagined i would suffer an 18 point penalty, as for submitting my version of events i doubt it would have helped much as you can see from my previous post i have already quoted from their own words of the committee what happened so they did see my version and still elected to whack me with 18 points.

i am not trying to get the penalty reduced i am just trying to fathom as to how this was regarded as a severe incident. both drivers had an oppurntunity to avoid this incident it was not all my making had wood allowed me to get back onto the racing line everything would have been fine.

As I mentioned, this is the second time (or is it third) that a driver has not "replied" because they didn't think it was worth it, maybe now that will change

Let's not get into the "Famin" argument about racing lines again but on tracks like this if you are on a low line (as this was) and there is a car on the outside you have to slow enough to keep the inside line and not connect with the car above. This happened to me several times during this race also, I did not expect the other driver to give me the "prefered" racing line, I had to fight for it, this meant racing two wide until one of us got the advantage.

Biteme · Post by **Biteme** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:45 pm

from race one.... a similar 1st time offence

Jay passed Bold on the inside of the turn then hits the apron, lost control and took out Bold. A relatively serious mistake for an experienced driver to make and the effect was fairly serious to another driver.
Jay admitted his mistake was due to a glance at the Ã¢â‚¬Å“FÃ¢â‚¬Â

odonohuesp · Post by **odonohuesp** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:53 pm

How about an automatic point deduct for an incident no matter what, plus the points that the driver loses based off the honest mistake of a driver? Take out the leader and the leader ends up finishing in last place....that would be a very large penalty....come to think of it, I like this idea.

How bout if you Driver A hits Driver B and Driver A goes on to finish higher in the race than Driver B, the drivers switch positions and Driver A will also receive a penalty. Some drivers have said that they will not submit a protest, because they have already lost the points from the incident and all they gain from it, is the fact that a driver as penalized for their mistake. This would fix that problem.

Big Al · Post by **Big Al** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:02 pm

[quote="Biteme"]from race one.... a similar 1st time offence

Jay passed Bold on the inside of the turn then hits the apron, lost control and took out Bold. A relatively serious mistake for an experienced driver to make and the effect was fairly serious to another driver.
Jay admitted his mistake was due to a glance at the Ã¢â‚¬Å“FÃ¢â‚¬Â

Post by **Jetboy** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:39 pm

Funninly enough I dont see anyone thanking the guys that take time out to run the league, spend hours reviewing protests (because yea it only takes 2 mins to review and make an informed decision...yea right), taking onboard ideas and constructive suggestions, giving up their own time to help out the others that dont seem to have the time or inclination to front up and give up their time to be second guessed and accused of fudging penalties

How about the race committee review the entire race and ping everyone that causes a ding, with any luck we'll decide the winner of the league by who's left half way through the season

Decisions been made, welcome to the world were not everyone's perfect all the time....get over it

3 hours of racing to look foward to tommorrow night....be HAPPY (well not literally its bad enough just having one of him round

)

Big Al · Post by **Big Al** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:40 pm

odonohuesp wrote:How about an automatic point deduct for an incident no matter what, plus the points that the driver loses based off the honest mistake of a driver? Take out the leader and the leader ends up finishing in last place....that would be a very large penalty....come to think of it, I like this idea.

How bout if you Driver A hits Driver B and Driver A goes on to finish higher in the race than Driver B, the drivers switch positions and Driver A will also receive a penalty. Some drivers have said that they will not submit a protest, because they have already lost the points from the incident and all they gain from it, is the fact that a driver as penalized for their mistake. This would fix that problem.

there is no real easy answer but i do think a set penalty point needs to be set. the current system has too many variables such as what mood is the committee member in, is he rushed in viewing the protest etc and i know the committee are unbiased but human nature dictates that it is easier to show lenancy on a friend/teammate than it is on a driver you dont know.

something along the lines of a warning for your first offence, and then 15 point penaty for each subsequent offence.

or we could take a leaf out of the NRL and grade different offences with penalty points and perhaps allow a reduction in penalty if a driver pleads guilty, this will negate the need for the committee to sit through replays and will take the pressure off them in making the right decision all the time.

BAZZIL · Post by **BAZZIL** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:42 pm

Big Al · Post by **Big Al** » Tue Sep 06, 2005 11:49 pm

Jetboy wrote:

Funninly enough I dont see anyone thanking the guys that take time out to run the league, spend hours reviewing protests (because yea it only takes 2 mins to review and make an informed decision...yea right), taking onboard ideas and constructive suggestions, giving up their own time to help out the others that dont seem to have the time or inclination to front up and give up their time to be second guessed and accused of fudging penalties

How about the race committee review the entire race and ping everyone that causes a ding, with any luck we'll decide the winner of the league by who's left half way through the season

Decisions been made, welcome to the world were not everyone's perfect all the time....get over it

3 hours of racing to look foward to tommorrow night....be HAPPY (well not literally its bad enough just having one of him round )

get over yourself jetboy, i thought one of the reasons for the protest system was so drivers can learn from their mistakes, now how can we do that without asking questions and how can improvemnts be made to the league if we do not voice our opinions.

I have asked one question, why was my incident regarded as a serious one and not a minor one. so far i believe i have had a response from every committee member and not one has explained this to me. you guys made the decision so it should not be difficult to explain it.

if you have a problem with being on the committee and having to answer league member questions then step down and i will take your place i may not have the same experiance as you but i will not request members to say thank you everytime i complete a task that is expected of a committee member and for the record at the end of the season i always give a big

to the committee for their work.