Protest Results NZNL Race 4

[Biteme]

Funninly enough I dont see anyone thanking the guys that take time out to run the league, spend hours reviewing protests (because yea it only takes 2 mins to review and make an informed decision...yea right), taking onboard ideas and constructive suggestions, giving up their own time to help out the others that dont seem to have the time or inclination to front up and give up their time to be second guessed and accused of fudging penalties

How about the race committee review the entire race and ping everyone that causes a ding, with any luck we'll decide the winner of the league by who's left half way through the season



Decisions been made, welcome to the world were not everyone's perfect all the time....get over it

3 hours of racing to look foward to tommorrow night....be HAPPY (well not literally its bad enough just having one of him round )

no ones accusing anyone of biased decisions ya sack!
We are discussing I believe the opportunity under the present penalty format for some inconsistincies to occur and have made reccomendations for future adjustments to the penalty system based on our observations.

It would be more beneficial if you were to make constuctive comments and adding to the discussion rather than attempting to bully folks into refraining from any comment.

[Jetboy]

sheesh I must have been in a right mood last night sorry bout that

Will post up something later, gotta be at work right now

[Snake Rogers]

Bollocks to all that crap


I love this protest thread

Oh and heres a hug from Mattly

[TonyG]

We used to have a set penalty system, it was either 25 or 50 points off, no reply and that was it.

We have now got a system where the seriousness of the incident can be judged, I base my decisions on the incident as I see it at the time based on:

The nature of the crash (if any)
The intent of the driver
The drivers attitude afterwards (if any) i.e. was the driver sorry for a mistake or explain his actions.
Also is the driver just apologising to get a lower penalty
The overall attitude of a driver in the forums and the track


As for Big Als penalty, you can compare it to a whole lot of things if you like, you can go back and find lots of comparisons e.g. Wood was penalised 18 points last season and there was no accident because the incident was seen as reasonably serious, overall I believe the commitee was a little easy on drivers at the start of the season and have tightened up as the season goes along.
I don't believe we can have a set penalty for incidents as each one is usually totally different to another even if the outcome was the same

[Big Al]

We used to have a set penalty system, it was either 25 or 50 points off, no reply and that was it.

We have now got a system where the seriousness of the incident can be judged, I base my decisions on the incident as I see it at the time based on:

The nature of the crash (if any)
The intent of the driver
The drivers attitude afterwards (if any) i.e. was the driver sorry for a mistake or explain his actions.
Also is the driver just apologising to get a lower penalty
The overall attitude of a driver in the forums and the track


As for Big Als penalty, you can compare it to a whole lot of things if you like, you can go back and find lots of comparisons e.g. Wood was penalised 18 points last season and there was no accident because the incident was seen as reasonably serious, overall I believe the commitee was a little easy on drivers at the start of the season and have tightened up as the season goes along.
I don't believe we can have a set penalty for incidents as each one is usually totally different to another even if the outcome was the same

I dont think you can compare it to last seasons protest there were different drivers different rules and different committee members. I agree the committee was easy on drivers at the start but the standard was then set you cant change the criteria each and every week this will add to drivers confusion and frustration and one of my original key points was consistency please.

I was expecting a 8 - 10 point penalty so some may be wondering why the hassle over 8 points but this has now added a cloud over the rest of the season, if i commit the same offence again what penalty will i get then... 30 - 40 points it has to be more severe for a second offence ? and all for just drifting in a corner?, one of the most if not the most common reasons for incidents.

looking at what you base your decision on i thought i would have come out pretty nicely.

bit worried about the bit with does the driver apologise or explain actions. some drivers corrospond through PM and not the forum, you obviously will not be aware of any apology does that now mean a harsher penalty.

[BAZZIL]

no ones accusing anyone of biased decisions ya sack!

Yeah! you go biatch !

[BAZZIL]

bit worried about the bit with does the driver apologise or explain actions. some drivers corrospond through PM and not the forum, you obviously will not be aware of any apology does that now mean a harsher penalty.

Yes if there is correspondence between drivers that is relevant, then you should send it in your defendant response to the protest against you, when sending an e-mail to the committee

[Skelo]

Penalties and protests will always be a hard thing.

One of the major influences on this is that at the end of the day it comes soley down to the opinion of the committee. Committee or not it is an opinion and will always be argued both for and against.

I remember we had the same arguements with a R/c car club I was in.

We (although it was a lengthy setup) changed the penalty system to make it far easier for the committee to make an "un-biased" decision.
I AM NOT implying that the committee is biased I am simply showing how another community addressed similar issues.

*INFORMATION ONLY (I would like to hear the committee's opinion)

For a start there were 2 penalty lines. Minor and Major.
For ease of distribution Major incured twice as many as Minor when it came to penalty points.
Minor involves 1 to 2 others and Major involves 3+

Secondly we got together and decided (using past experience) all of the penalty infringements and allocated each one a deduction depending on seriousness.

eg:
Dangerous pit causing accident -9
Overtaking causing accident -7
Failing to slow for accident -6

(Remembering here that Major events incur double)

These points were published in the Rules. Therefor can not be argued as you agree to them when you join the said "club".

When a protest was lodged the committee had 2 decisions (95% of the time).

1. Was it Minor/Major - Simple majority Vote. Majority Rules period.
This determined the "penalty line" you chose. (Minor/Major)

2. Run through the incidents and find the one that MOST suits the one protested against. (In some cases there were 2 or 3 but you have to pick the MOST suitable)Read off the already allocated points and deduct accordingly.


As you can see from this example the committee made 1 decision and it was quick.
Was it Minor/Major? The rest is set in concrete and the drivers are well aware of the penalty they could face even before the committee have ruled.

The only exception to this is when an event occurs that you can't compare to the set penalties. That is where the committee get together like you do now and make a decision basing the deduction off the already built deduction point table.

From experience in the club after implementing this system we had next to NO arguements as they who argued were simply pointed to the club rules.
Everyone knew they were being protested for something (like here as it is posted) so they already knew a ballpark figure of what they were up against.

Something tried and worked here. *Opinion of mine only* I don't want to be shot at for trying to help.

If for some reason you would like to trial this system I will be more than willing to help set it up.
Also if you have any questions (as text can be hard to decipher) I am more than willing to chat about it on vent.

Cheers

[TonyG]

Interesting Skelo

I think the word deliberate is misleading, perhaps misjudgement or just bad driving and careless could be used instead, due to the fact that at the moment if anyone "deliberately" causes an accident they are off the league

The hard part is defining the incidents, it is easy to say -5 or whatever for causing an accident but there are also varying degrees of accidents from a mild tag to a full blown collision, that is why a scale from 5 to 50 is used now.

[Skelo]

Yes you are right.

Like i mentioned it does have a lengthy setup but once complete makes for a very easy allocation of penalties.


*edited to avoid confusion*

[Skelo]

Hmm I have an idea...

Wait a few while I type it.

[Skelo]

Hmm, ok. The Swap idea can't work TonyG. I have proved that but asked that the thread be removed so not to cause confusion.

I now fall back on my original set point system and I believe I have backup by Flyboy and others.

Flyboy's comments enlightened me to a couple of things.

Our club didnt have a rule stating "deliberate" incidents will get you removed from the league.

The league does have this rule. So, instead of having the "Deliberate/Accidental you can merely swap them for Minor/Major automatically, perhaps major incuring double reduction?

I have edited the idea to reflect for this league.

[Big Al]

Penalties and protests will always be a hard thing.

One of the major influences on this is that at the end of the day it comes soley down to the opinion of the committee. Committee or not it is an opinion and will always be argued both for and against.

I remember we had the same arguements with a R/c car club I was in.

We (although it was a lengthy setup) changed the penalty system to make it far easier for the committee to make an "un-biased" decision.
I AM NOT implying that the committee is biased I am simply showing how another community addressed similar issues.

*INFORMATION ONLY (I would like to hear the committee's opinion)

For a start there were 2 penalty lines. Minor and Major.
For ease of distribution Major incured twice as many as Minor when it came to penalty points.
Minor involves 1 to 2 others and Major involves 3+

Secondly we got together and decided (using past experience) all of the penalty infringements and allocated each one a deduction depending on seriousness.

eg:
Dangerous pit causing accident -9
Overtaking causing accident -7
Failing to slow for accident -6

(Remembering here that Major events incur double)

These points were published in the Rules. Therefor can not be argued as you agree to them when you join the said "club".

When a protest was lodged the committee had 2 decisions (95% of the time).

1. Was it Minor/Major - Simple majority Vote. Majority Rules period.
This determined the "penalty line" you chose. (Minor/Major)

2. Run through the incidents and find the one that MOST suits the one protested against. (In some cases there were 2 or 3 but you have to pick the MOST suitable)Read off the already allocated points and deduct accordingly.


As you can see from this example the committee made 1 decision and it was quick.
Was it Minor/Major? The rest is set in concrete and the drivers are well aware of the penalty they could face even before the committee have ruled.

The only exception to this is when an event occurs that you can't compare to the set penalties. That is where the committee get together like you do now and make a decision basing the deduction off the already built deduction point table.

From experience in the club after implementing this system we had next to NO arguements as they who argued were simply pointed to the club rules.
Everyone knew they were being protested for something (like here as it is posted) so they already knew a ballpark figure of what they were up against.

Something tried and worked here. *Opinion of mine only* I don't want to be shot at for trying to help.

If for some reason you would like to trial this system I will be more than willing to help set it up.
Also if you have any questions (as text can be hard to decipher) I am more than willing to chat about it on vent.

Cheers

Looks like a pretty good system to me, but i think before we get carried away designing new protest procedures perhaps a poll on whether people think a change is required...for all we know the majority may prefer the current system as it is

[Flyboy69]

That sounds quite good Skelo

[Skelo]

Yea, I don't know how it will go in this league...from past experience I would imagine it could go quite well.

There are a few people though that are "resistant to change" no matter if it's better or worse, and trying to point out the good parts to them is usually the hardest part.

From the example I gave it makes it very hard, almost impossible to argue and thats what I think this league needs for protests.

Then theyre out of the way and we can get down to some decent friendly competitive racing.