Ammendment to the rules needed

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:02 am

This is the first time that rules have been applied to this league and obviously there will be times when ammendments will have to be made.

Ron Westland has been running a successful league for a while and I use his rules as a guideline, I think most would agree that the way he runs the sportscar league is fair to all parties

Recent startline incidents in the sportscar league are worth mentioning here.
All racers in the league will know the complete details.

To summarise there were repeated infringements of the starting procedure which caused major and minor accidents (I should point out that damage is on moderate, so ANY accident causes damage which affects the race), Ron as administrator warned of the consequences of repeated infringements, he also went to great lengths to explain all details, the end result was that several "incident" points were issued, there was no ill feeling and the last two races were incident free at the start.
I'd say that the way it was handled was to the benefit of all concerned.

I propose 2 ammendments to the rules as follows:

1. The implementation of incident points to penalise incidents that are not deliberate or just plain stupid, (EDIT: in other words, racing incidents). This system provides a warning to the driver and after accumulating 2,3,4,? incident points the driver is then penalised 25 driving points.
The current penalties of 25 or 50 points does not cover the range of accidents that occur in a race and should be changed immediately.

2. All protests must follow the rules as laid out in the rules section.
e.g. The protesting driver should make his protest known to the other driver, via email or forum, if satisfaction is not achieved then he protests and the administrators make a decision. That is fair to both parties.
IF THIS PROCEDURE IS NOT FOLLOWED A PROTEST CANNOT BE UPHELD

At the moment the protests can be unilateraly decided and the other driver HAS NO RIGHT OF APPEAL OR COMEBACK, there are always two sides to a story and each should have his say.
Discussion on incidents have happened numerous times before on this and GP forum with excellent results being achieved e.g the Doug Westland incidents (sorry to bring your name up Doug)

I have followed this procedure when RV took me out from third place in the first race, I emailed him and explained what had happened, offered advice on what he should have done instead and both parties were satisfied

Somehow the fact of a behind the scenes protest without the other party knowing anything about it just leaves a foul taste in my mouth!

Eagle32 · Post by **Eagle32** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:53 am

Redvalient was the first person to have a penalty applied tony

While I hadn't really thought about it till yesterday I can see potential for problems with the penalty system but I don't think mid-season is the time to make changes or even discuss what I think the the problems are. I don't even have solutions for what I see as problems.

We agreed to the rules by joining the league and while they may not be perfect nothing ever is and I don't think their should be any changes made until this season is complete especially as they probably couldn't be applied retro-actively to the previous races without a lot of work for the admins.

I'm actually not a fan of the "talk to them first philosophy in some cases. Taking the sportscars on sunday. I got punted into a wall lap 2 and I have no desire to make nice nice conversation with the person that hit me. I'd rather just have a 3rd party decide if there was fault. But that might just be me

odonohuesp · Post by **odonohuesp** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:58 am

Excellant points Tony......Must drivers know when they are responsible for an incident. Some drivers just carry on their merry way like nothing happened, while some will actual apologies for what has happened.

The committee looks at different angles of the replay, they will watch the speeds of the trucks to see if there was an attempt to slow down.

I do agree with you that the party that the protest is being submitted against to have the chance for a rebuttal.

This may be an option that we could look at.

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:15 am

Eagle32 wrote:Redvalient was the first person to have a penalty applied tony

My point exactly! He could of had a penalty from the first race but I felt it was fairer to make him aware of the mistake rather than penalise

We agreed to the rules by joining the league and while they may not be perfect nothing ever is and I don't think their should be any changes made until this season is complete especially as they probably couldn't be applied retro-actively to the previous races without a lot of work for the admins.

I'm actually not a fan of the "talk to them first philosophy in some cases. Taking the sportscars on sunday. I got punted into a wall lap 2 and I have no desire to make nice nice conversation with the person that hit me. I'd rather just have a 3rd party decide if there was fault. But that might just be me Smile

My point on this is that the rules state that the correct procedure is to talk first (after the initial frustration is overcome) then protest. This is not enforced and as you say we agreed to the rules when we joined

Post by **Inspector** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 12:56 pm

OK a couple of things.

Please first remember that the committee/organisers are a group of five that have thrown together some rules and a league format based upon what we have learned from previous leagues. We have always said we are looking for ways to improve the way the league is run with the ultimate goal being an enjoyable but competitive online racing experience for all drivers, not matter what their skill level or competitive instinct is.

So having said this, I will first say that this is the first league we have implimented and put in writing some rules. We stole some of Rons rules and we altered some of his rules to suit our league and our attitude toward running a league. We put rules into place that on reflection are not perfect or in fact were intended to be guidelines rather than rules. We have enforced some rules and been leniant on others. We have changed a few rules already in an effort to fix obvious mistakes and suit circumstances that have arisen since the start of the league.

In the case of the protest which has raised these issues I can only say this:

Please also note that I make this post from my own personal perspective not on behalf of the other organisers.

The first and major concern to the organisers is the amount of unneccasary accidents. The only way we seem to be able to get some drivers to sit up and take notice is to either publiclly flog them or run a protest/penalty system. The public floggings got out of hand so we moved back to the protest system. Not only does it make people sit up and take notice but it reduces the amount of mud throwing in the forums, therefore creating a more pleasant atmosphere in the forums where even Disco might feel at home.

So we discussed a penalty system based upon a mixture of previous seasons experiences running a similar system and the system that Ron uses. We agreed that the points had to be serious enough to gain attention without completely ruining a guys race for him. Do not get confused with the points from a sports car race, from a possible total of 175 points for a win, a 25 point penalty would drop you about 5 spots. Serious enough to get your attention? but not serious enough to take you out of the running. We thought it unlikely we would get repeat offenders but if we did then 50 points will really knock you out of your seat. We did in fact try using less point deductions in the past and people didn't ake it seriously enough.

In most cases people can see they have made a mistake but in some they can't or the two sides have there own view of what happened with rights or wrongs on both sides. So someone independantly must make a decision and in almost every case one side will not get the result they wanted. Now it is time to except the decision that the senior/experienced drivers have made an get on with it. There are no other choices. If we accept appeals and enter into more discussions it will just turn into a long drawn out debate and that is not acceptable from a time point of view and the stress factor. Myself and others spend our time organising these leagues so we can enjoy "organised racing" and have learnt that we must spend a bit of time on educating the drivers, new and old, and we are doing it the best we can, learning as we go along.

Final answer, except the decision and get on with it. We have noted your concerns and will address them as we can. If you feel you have some more to offer I will expect to see your hand raised when we ask for organisers for the next league!

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:17 pm

Inspector
I suggest you read my post again

I did not complain about the protest in this forum and as you are aware I emailed you and said I would accept it, the comments I made are to help stop any further similar situations, misunderstandings etc. coming up, so keep you're heavy handed comments to yourself

BAZZIL · Post by **BAZZIL** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:26 pm

I see your points TonyG and see why you have brought these up.

the rules
The rules do perhaps need modifying, Inspector and I put the rules together and we put alot of thought into them, we weren't going to put up a thread and say what do you guys want the rules to be, because we would still be here deciding them.

So we made what we thought was a good set of rules and put the rules up and let everyone know those were the rules, but we have always said if anyone has any ideas or thinks something should be changed, then let us know, we are always open to discussion as far as league organisation goes.

other parties in a penalty decision
I do think however we should be e-mailing the defendant in a protest letting them know they are under protest for an incident (you are right TonyG, I don't think we should be going through a protest without the other driver knowing), A short paragraph should be sent back giving the viewpoint of that driver (but only a short paragraph, and only one reply) because like inspector said, we don't have time for a full discussion about every penalty.

driver communication before submission of penalties
While drivers are encouraged to sort accidents out with the party involved, some may not want to and it should be fair that they can submit a protest without first discussing it with the other party. (we should change that part in the rules)

incident points
I'm not sure incident points are the way to improve the driving, it's almost like you have too many chances allowed before you actually get pinged for it. We tried to introduce a slightly harsher penalty system so that it is always in the back of peoples minds when they are racing.

I would most definitely take more risks if I knew I had incident points up my sleeve to burn without getting my points subtracted.

penalties and the penalty process
5 committee members do their best to decide who is at fault in an incident and if anyone should be pinged for it, if there is a conflict of interest (eg: drivers on the same team as the driver protesting) then those comittee members do not vote.

The committee shall get together and discuss rule ammendments

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:30 pm

Thankyou for your comments Bazzil

Typhoon · Post by **Typhoon** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 1:35 pm

TonyG wrote:Inspector
I suggest you read my post again

I did not complain about the protest in this forum and as you are aware I emailed you and said I would accept it, the comments I made are to help stop any further similar situations, misunderstandings etc. coming up, so keep you're heavy handed comments to yourself

I think Tony is quite right, and Happy actually suggested to me the otherday that we should create a sticky where protest information should be lodged so the drivers know if there is a protect against them.

I think the Organisers should take these ideas into account, it just keeps the drivers more informed with proceedings

Post by **Inspector** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:18 pm

I am sorry Tony if I came across heavy handed, I guess I was quite short, but you and other newer guys have to appreciate we have been listening to the moaning and whinging and been through much shit throwing over incidents that happen during racing over the last couple of years.

We continue to organise as best we can and try and make things better but still the call comes in to do something about the attitude of drivers on the track. This far from points at your attitude by the way which has been great, it is a generalisation and instead of watching the race every week from 30 different drivers perspectives, we ask the drivers to report incidents and we judge them and issue a penalty if needed, no matter who they are!!!!

It is very hard to judge against your fellow competitors who you race side by side with each week and who in some cases are close friends and in the worst case scenario where your own personal and team standings are effected (this very situation) it makes it very disheartening when your best efforts and integrity are questioned. Hence a fairly abrupt response.

As Bazzil has posted we will look into all the suggestions and try and improve and please accept my apology for being so heavy handed, I hope you can understand my reason and we can move on and enjoy our racing.

TonyG · Post by **TonyG** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 3:37 pm

Apology accepted

Eagle32 · Post by **Eagle32** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:13 pm

Woops, my post was a bit off the point. Sorry Tony I only skimmed your post as I was about to go out the door and got off track as I made a speed post so I could catch the bus

Mattly · Post by **Mattly** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 4:33 pm

What time is the bus and is it an express?

Based on last weeks performance i think i will finish better on it.

Happy · Post by **Happy** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 12:16 am

One other ammendment that the rules need is a maximum time that a penalty can be submitted, obviously submitting penalties for the first race of the season when the league has just finished would be stupid, but according to the rules, there is nothing that says you can't do that

My suggestion would be that all protests must be made before the next race.