An observation

Biteme · Post by **Biteme** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:27 am

Hmmmmnnn... Politics.
I wonder who will be 1st to ban baby smacking?

I origionally tried popping this in the forum debate thread. It seems that now the respective admins have had their wah that the community are locked out of contibuting to what may have lead to a lessening of tensions between the contributors.

I have found that since the forum divisions that KSR is devoted mainly to anything with 4 wheels and that SC is more about combat sims. I attend the forum that match's what I happen to be into at the time.

Am saddened though that there is now little liason with those that elect to boycott SC despite being into FPS etc. It is certainly disappointing that our regular community has become so disjointed of late.

I browse KSR to see what is occuring here with BF2 or ArmedA and there is negligable activity. Perhaps we need a fourth forum where everyone is comfortable in contributing.

...

Noon416 · Post by **Noon416** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:06 am

I don't think there will ever be any easy answers to these issues & questions, Biteme, there is too much history & emotion from all parties tied up in each decision that has been made, and that all needs time to settle and the dust to clear.

The Easter LAN will go a long way towards healing some of the wounds in the community, and reviving hopes that we'll continue to be a single community as a whole that moves forward in a positive manner.

Ultimately the community will do what it wants to do, but I think overall the community is sensible in it's choices and moods, and we're not at risk of imploding or exploding any time soon.

*more tomorrow, time for bed now*

Post by **Inspector** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:16 am

Biteme wrote: I origionally tried popping this in the forum debate thread. It seems that now the respective admins have had their wah that the community are locked out of contibuting to what may have lead to a lessening of tensions between the contributors.

Actually the thread had to be locked and a post removed because one representitive of the SC forum couldn't resist making personal attacks on people giving their opinion here. You have simply overcome the issue by creating a new thread which in fact suits this admin fine. I don't actually want the subject to be swept under the carpet, it needs to be resolved.

Biteme wrote:I have found that since the forum divisions that KSR is devoted mainly to anything with 4 wheels and that SC is more about combat sims. I attend the forum that match's what I happen to be into at the time.

Which is the whole point Biteme, why is there forum divisions? KS & SimCentral (the original) were divided for practical reasons initially and there were no issues. Long term we worked toward joining forces so racing, flight and all other discussion are in one place for Kiwis, but instead we now have 3 forums which may have a general theme of flight, racing and FPS/Flight but all the other general discussion is now spread between 3 forums and efforts of admin and forum contributors are spread over 3 forums instead of for the good of all Kiwi Simmers/gamers in one place.

Biteme wrote:Am saddened though that there is now little liason with those that elect to boycott SC despite being into FPS etc. It is certainly disappointing that our regular community has become so disjointed of late.

Boycott could also be interpretted as "no I'm not signing up to another forum that covers what is already in KS & KSR" - Also I do not support a forum that is controlled by a private business person who makes no secret of the fact that the forum is there to enhance his business and make money from it. Peoples blood used to boil when this became apparent at GP Forums and they didn't have an issue with boycotting them when it happened?

At the end of the day people still are loyal to companies like VR Concepts and Inspire Net because they have supported our community, heck I still like to buy as much stuff as I can from Dean at DSE (now DS Electronics in Feilding) because of all the support he has given our community over the years long before KS, SC or KSR even existed and creating a forum to sell products was totally unnecessary and only achieved a split in the community and possibly bad feeling toward the business instead.

Thanks for your observation Biteme, I hope some others have some as well.

Prometheus · Post by **Prometheus** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:32 am

My 2c worth

Any forum that is sponsored by anyone will always be seeking some business from people. The amount of pimping InspireNet gets when people talk about ISP issues is one example - so my logic is that it's near impossible to have a free site that doesn't promote anyone.

Personally, I wish there was just one place we could all meet - like in the old days when GP Forums was the simulations place to meet. I understand why GPStore who were paying for the forums became unhappy the VRC kept getting linked and plugged.

There does seem to be a long term plan for something - but that's what I've been hearing for some time now, so I just go with the flow and if I visit a few sites, it's not big deal for me.

Me, I'm a member of :
KiwiSimRacing - for my racing info and other stuff
KiwiSim - for my flight sim and other stuff
SimCentral - for my fps, flight sim and other stuff
GP Forums - for my contact with nutters in Open Discussion who honestly believe that the moon landings were a complete hoax

All these places do a similar job - yes it would be ideal if everyone was together in one place, but the reality is that each serve their own viewer base and even if it was all centered in one spot, it simply wouldn't last. It didn't before so I can't see how it could again.

Every couple of years the whole scene breathes, burps and splits and moves on to another place.

disclaimer : VRConcepts sponsor SimTV for making movies in supplying computer equipment. I still purchase my own games from various shops, I was dropped on my head as a child and I'm not responsible for what I wrote above !

Wolfman · Post by **Wolfman** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:25 am

What Prom said. (Except for the being dropped on the head)

BAZZIL · Post by **BAZZIL** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 12:45 pm

what people like is freedom of speech and you get that only with a forum run by a community, not a business.

a plan was drawn up to get everything sim related into one place and have it run by the community, but that all got put on hold when the simcentral domain name was ripped away and another forum popped up. Our community is going backwards not forwards.

Prometheus · Post by **Prometheus** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:30 pm

BAZZIL wrote:Our community is going backwards not forwards.

lol, when I read that all I could think of was the Simpsons and the aliens acting as Clin-TON and Dole.

Forwards, not backwards, upwards, not sideways... all the while singing and going tra-la-la-la-la-la.

BAZZIL · Post by **BAZZIL** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:50 pm

Typhoon · Post by **Typhoon** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:02 pm

BAZZIL wrote:what people like is freedom of speech and you get that only with a forum run by a community, not a business.

a plan was drawn up to get everything sim related into one place and have it run by the community, but that all got put on hold when the simcentral domain name was ripped away and another forum popped up. Our community is going backwards not forwards.

What a load of rubbish Bazzil. Lets stick to the facts.

1. I was given a piece of paper saying Simcentral.co.nz was no longer required, and would be replaced by kiwisimracing.net.nz
2. The "Put on hold" is because of your inability to get the new site up and running.
3. The reason that the community has gone backwards is because certain people have not been honest with the community.

You talk about freedom of speech Bazzil, but you locked the thread restricting that, so don't come up with bullshit excuss about community vs business. If moderators don't like whats being said, they will always restrict of speech.

Post by **Jetboy** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:23 pm

Keen to ease things back here a bit, most of us are pretty good friends in real life so lets not get to specific with personal level stuff

I'm kinda hoping that eventually we can roll all 3 into 1 which was kinda the intent from the moment we left GP, not to sure on what is happening at KS at the moment but am hopeful that we can find a balance that keeps people happy and the community that has been built around here gets 1 place that we can all come and visit

Might be a fair way off but nothing like having something to work towards

Post by **Inspector** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 2:36 pm

Typhoon wrote: What a load of rubbish Bazzil. Lets stick to the facts.

1. I was given a piece of paper saying Simcentral.co.nz was no longer required, and would be replaced by kiwisimracing.net.nz

I didn't see that bit of paper? In fact after a post was made to say I own SimCentral and will do what I like with it was what encouraged the name change of the forum.

Typhoon wrote: 2. The "Put on hold" is because of your inability to get the new site up and running.

Actually we thought we had it all sorted with the direction being a merge of SC/KSR with KS but finding that part of the community wanted to race off in a new direction stumped us all but fortunately this and the other thread has prompted renewed interest from some key figures and we are once again encouraged to resolve the split community issue and get back on track with putting it all together again.

Typhoon wrote: 3. The reason that the community has gone backwards is because certain people have not been honest with the community.

Exactly

Typhoon wrote: You talk about freedom of speech Bazzil, but you locked the thread restricting that, so don't come up with bullshit excuss about community vs business. If moderators don't like whats being said, they will always restrict of speech.

LOL - I'm not sure how Bold feels about that nor the spot you put his flatmates in but I'm sure everyone thinks we are censoring you Mat......

As indicated Jetboy, we are now motivated to work with KS and get the the whole merge thing going again so yep fingers crossed it all works out.
On the friends note, most of the guy here played pool last night and nothing has changed. We disagree on a number of things and thrashing it out in the forums doesn't change things, it's actually a great way to speak your mind without embarrasing people face to face and getting heated about it. We have time to think over what each other is saying instead of retaliating immediately which leads to issues when discussing contencious issues face to face and next week when Happy and I thrash Bazz and Typhoon at pool we will be able to recap the weeks posts and tell each other how crap we are at pool. All good?

Noon416 · Post by **Noon416** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:22 pm

All I'm going to add is this reminder:

- We moved away from GP Forums when conflicts around commercial interests became to heated.
- We moved away from simcentral when conflicts around commercial interests became too heated.

It would be great shame to see the community fall victim to such circumstance yet again, hence why the SimServer plan came about.
One of it's many intents is to create a commercially neutral environment where one business can compete fairly with another, while both businesses behaviour is moderated by neutral staff.
Another benefit (amongst many) is indeed the intended integration of the sites & community into one single, better resourced entity where people can focus their efforts instead of dividing them.

And yes, it's taken a lot longer than we've expected (we've never hidden that fact) to get the project off the ground but that hasn't diminished it's intent or future benefits to the community in any way.

Typhoon · Post by **Typhoon** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:23 pm

All good as always Inspector

Post by **Inspector** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:45 pm

Typhoon wrote:All good as always Inspector

It wasn't good last night when those bloody sacks ripped our massive lead off us. I think they were cheating actually because Bazz kept unscrewing my stick.......whoops, that didn't sound quite right, and Happy kept pulling fish faces every time we went to take a shot putting us off completely. But aside from that we certainly hold the record for the most outrageous bollocks shot in the history of our games and that is some bollocks I can tell you.

KSR Bunny · Post by **KSR Bunny** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:50 pm

But

Did ya tip stay on?

Post by **Inspector** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 3:55 pm

Yes indeed it did Bunny, oh yea mean the tip of my pool cue?

Typhoon · Post by **Typhoon** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:50 pm

Yes, I felt pretty bloody ripped, out massive lead blown away.

BAZZIL · Post by **BAZZIL** » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:03 pm

Typhoon wrote:
BAZZIL wrote:what people like is freedom of speech and you get that only with a forum run by a community, not a business.

a plan was drawn up to get everything sim related into one place and have it run by the community, but that all got put on hold when the simcentral domain name was ripped away and another forum popped up. Our community is going backwards not forwards.
What a load of rubbish Bazzil. Lets stick to the facts.

1. I was given a piece of paper saying Simcentral.co.nz was no longer required, and would be replaced by kiwisimracing.net.nz
2. The "Put on hold" is because of your inability to get the new site up and running.
3. The reason that the community has gone backwards is because certain people have not been honest with the community.

You talk about freedom of speech Bazzil, but you locked the thread restricting that, so don't come up with bullshit excuss about community vs business. If moderators don't like whats being said, they will always restrict of speech.

Well it's not surprising then you packed it all in, if you'd actually read the thing you would have noticed it was a 'proposal' designed for feedback to see if that's what we should do and at that stage you said something to the effect of "that looks all fine to me"

Inability to get a new site up and running? you plan a site before making it, not the other way around - what's the point of making something without consulting the community first? if we did that we'd end up with something like simcentral which 15 people read and post and nobody else is interested in.

The thread you talk about was locked because you jumped in with personal attacks and ridiculed a member of the forum.

The reason a proposal was drawn up first before you saw it was because we had an idea you would act the way you did by taking away the domain name and stamping your feet demanding you have control over everything, and wow .. look what happened.

Honesty? I wonder how honest your explanation was to the now current simcentral members about why you were creating a seperate site with forum.

Growler · Post by **Growler** » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:51 pm

So...why was there two forums created?

Growler.

Sulley · Post by **Sulley** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 12:56 am

Growler wrote:So...why was there two forums created?

Growler.

Beats the hell outta me, I obviously missed something along the way.

Personally I see a world of difference between the two sites, I go to SC for reviews, stories, product info etc, if its copied from other locations cool, saves me going looking for it.

I go to KSR for racing related info and discussion....

If SC wants to have a forum with mainly FPS related threads etc what's the big deal..KSR is mostly about cars ain't it and KS is mainly about Planes and boats etc....that's probably over-simplified but that's how it appears to me anyway

I don't quite see the big fuss over having just one forum for the range of things that peeps are into, surely having more subject specific sites would provide better depth of coverage in their respective areas...

I won't comment on the rights or wrongs of how things came about and who did what to whom or seemed to, lets just get along to the Easter Lan have a good time, bury the hatchet and get on with it and each other..

My two cents what its worth.

Post by **Inspector** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:53 am

LOL - Next we will have someone creating an rFactor only forum so we can have "just one forum for the range of things that peeps are into, surely having more subject specific sites would provide better depth of coverage in their respective areas... ", then we end up with 10 forums, one for every game we play.

The short story is Sulley, that we had a plan as a community to bring everything to one place, including the reviews, stories etc to combine the efforts of everyone and make it easy for Kiwis to simply go to the same place for all SIM related stuff, but creating forum after forum for every little section means that we will have less information spread over forums rather than all possible info from many different resources (member input) in one place. Doesn't this make any sense to you?

Sulley · Post by **Sulley** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:25 am

Inspector wrote:LOL - Next we will have someone creating an rFactor only forum so we can have "just one forum for the range of things that peeps are into, surely having more subject specific sites would provide better depth of coverage in their respective areas... ", then we end up with 10 forums, one for every game we play.

The short story is Sulley, that we had a plan as a community to bring everything to one place, including the reviews, stories etc to combine the efforts of everyone and make it easy for Kiwis to simply go to the same place for all SIM related stuff, but creating forum after forum for every little section means that we will have less information spread over forums rather than all possible info from many different resources (member input) in one place. Doesn't this make any sense to you?

In a word Bryden..CHILL.

I never suggested that 10 forums or one for every game someone plays was a good thing..lol Just don't see that the current state of play with 3 places of interest is that bad...

All in one place sounds Sensible..yes, is it easy no, emotive obviously, possible yes, likely.....given the ease at which ppl like yourself jump down peoples' throats..I just don't think so...

Until ALL involved take their hand off it, and behave objectively and fairly with each other, then no chance, you gotta get past the bullshit and agree a set of objectives and groundrules, otherwise it will be a merry go-round of crap which ultimately will damage the community more than help it.

Crucial to the whole thing is the question of the commercial aspects of VRC and Inspire involvement and what works for their respective business models, until you sort that out..I don't see us getting very far.

I'd be happy to faciltate the discussion and planning if you like, I consider myself fairly objective in this whole thing and mediate stuff like this and assist planning major projects as part of my job.

Post by **Inspector** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 10:54 am

Angry Blue Monster wrote:
In a word Bryden..CHILL

I started my post by saying...LOL

Maybe you should take some of your own advice and read the discussion instead of jumping down other peoples throats. I'm not sure if you noticed but Bazz, Wood and Sasquatch were all poking fun at each other about NFS and you jumped on them as well?

Discussion is about replying to other peoples opinions with what you agree or disagree with. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion or gives an alternative does not mean that are getting agro or need to CHILL.

Sulley · Post by **Sulley** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:51 am

Inspector wrote:
Angry Blue Monster wrote:
In a word Bryden..CHILL

I started my post by saying...LOL

Maybe you should take some of your own advice and read the discussion instead of jumping down other peoples throats. I'm not sure if you noticed but Bazz, Wood and Sasquatch were all poking fun at each other about NFS and you jumped on them as well?

Discussion is about replying to other peoples opinions with what you agree or disagree with. Just because someone disagrees with your opinion or gives an alternative does not mean that are getting agro or need to CHILL.

Very good misdirection.. didn't answer any of the points raised, you should run for office mate

Didn't realise I jumped down BAZZ, Wood and co's throats, sorry not my intent, I admit I over-reacted...so how easy that is

Angry Monster mmmm ..yes your Doesn't it make sense to you crack, got my goat and I reacted to that. It was probably lost in the heat haze of your read of my comments, but I think I was actually agreeing with you that one forum would be best.....

Offer still stands to help..if desired, especailly if I can keep my trap shut from no on

Noon416 · Post by **Noon416** » Mon Mar 19, 2007 1:34 pm

Maybe I need to run a school for you all, on the proper use of smiley's to convey emotions...

There is no easy public answer on your question, Growler, because as is quite evident there is a lot of emotion tied up in the reasons.
Everyone does need to step back, and I think a great big punch up at the Easter LAN will help towards that goal. Or maybe just joking and mucking aruond face to face, but that's the wussy option.

The safest answer I can provide is that the SimServer project was created when the intentions of the community around a community site and Typhoon's intentions on a community site were in conflict and that resulted in the old simcentral.co.nz becoming kiwisimracing.net.nz (as an intermediary step towards an amalgamated site) & simcentral.co.nz being turned into what VRC has created over there.

An observation

An observation

Re: An observation